Emi Beredugo: From Science to Recruitment — Career Change, Living Abroad & Finding Fulfillment | Be Yourself Podcast

Emi Beredugo

Senior talent acquisition specialist with 15+ years of experience — on switching careers from science to recruitment, 12 years living in Dubai, how headhunting really works, and finding fulfillment by knowing your core skills

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62 minutes
Recruitment · Career Change · Living Abroad · Fulfillment

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About the Guest

Emi Beredugo — Senior Talent Acquisition Specialist, Co-host of Chad & Cheese

A UK-based senior talent acquisition professional with 15+ years across construction, engineering, FMCG and oil & gas. Born in the UK to Nigerian parents, she studied biomedical science before leaving the lab for recruitment

She spent 12 transformative years in Dubai heading in-house recruitment for major construction firms, and now co-hosts the Chad & Cheese podcast — one of the industry's most popular shows

What She Does
senior talent acquisition specialist with 15+ years across construction, engineering, FMCG and oil & gas — now UK-based and co-host of the Chad & Cheese podcast
Core Belief
career paths don't have to be linear — keep moving, stay curious, be open to change, because the job you'll do for years may not exist yet
On Headhunting
it's not waiting for people to apply — it's going to someone, opening a conversation, and listening so carefully that the match becomes obvious
On Finding Fulfillment
write down what you like, dislike, what drains you and what energizes you, rank it — then promise yourself to challenge your status quo

Key Quotes

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when you hold a grudge, nine times out of 10, the person that you holding a grudge with, they don't care. They've moved on. They're not even thinking about you. You're like a literally the furthest in their mind, whereas you're sitting there going every time you see them.

Emi Beredugo
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pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, embracing change, being open to change, that is what makes you grow as a person because new opportunities come your way that you never would have experienced, never would have even imagined would come your way.

Emi Beredugo
“

headunting just means instead of waiting for people to apply for your job, you are now going out to people. You are going, oh, this person looks like they'll be a fantastic match for my role and my organization. Let me now approach that person proactively.

Emi Beredugo

Episode Chapters

0:00 In this Episode 1:36 Who's Emi Beredugo? 3:30 How Emi Wound up Living in the UK and What Preceded This 5:22 What Emi Did to Allow Her to Travel and Make Money 6:49 Emi's Journey to Becoming a Recruiter 10:37 How Emi Switched from Science 18:23 Why People Want to Settle Down 26:43 The Power of Core Skills Across Careers 31:19 What Makes a Great Recruiter 34:57 The Go-to Story About Headhunting 38:33 Do We Ever Get to Choose Our Clients? 44:43 Detachment and Boundaries in Business Leadership 48:03 Does Emi Ever Hold Grudges? 50:50 Importance of Network in Life and Business 58:09 Emi's Tips for Finding Fulfillment and Loving What You Do

Full Transcript

BTW: This episode of the Be Yourself Podcast is produced by Beverly Media. Also on the show:
Neal Foard — 30 Years of Advertising on Storytelling, Persuasion & Human Connection →
0:00 In this Episode
Emi So when I graduated, it was like great, I've got a good degree from a good university, but I don't have great work experience. I was like, oh my god, okay, what do I do? I like what am I good at? I'm good at talking.
Sergey Yeah, okay. So maybe I'll go into sales.
Emi And I went into sales. It was fun because it was just like, well, I'm getting paid to talk to people and give them a product that they want. My skill set was there. I was like, this is fantastic. It was great for a couple of years and then I started to get a little bit okay this is not quite what I want to do for the rest of my life. So that began.
Sergey So you were really self-aware. How did at this that young age did you develop the self-awareness and the self-talk because a lot of people just go on autopilot.
Emi I would say that goes back to the situation with my dad. When I was in that situation obviously it was me, my mom and my sister. So dad was still he was in a coma actually for a long time and then even when he came out he was in hospital for a long time like I'm talking about a couple of years in hospital. I had to grow up really quickly. So I became very independent.
Sergey Hey guys, you're in for a special special treat today. This conversation with Emmy was truly truly inspiring. If you like what I do as a an aspiring podcaster, you can support me easily by just putting a like, commenting something, or maybe even subscribing to this channel. And I promise I will invite more awesome guests like Emmy. So, I hope you will enjoy the show. Thanks a lot.
1:36 Who's Emi Beredugo?
Sergey Hello everybody. This is Sergey with the Be Yourself podcast, the podcast on expressing our true selves. Today my guest is Emmy Beverugo. She is a senior level recruitment professional with over 15 years of experience in the industries like construction engineering, FMCG, oil and gas, you name it. She's a very fun individual who I'm really really excited to talk about. So Emmy, welcome to the show.
Emi Thank you very much. Happy to be here.
Sergey Emmy, how are you? Where are you now? How's the weather?
Emi Oh, okay. So, I'm in London and I'm very upset about the fact that I'm still in London because I should be sitting on the beach in Dubai. That was the plan. And uh unfortunately, plans have gone a little bit way late. So, and I'm looking out the window and it's um gray and we're in June. So, yeah. Go figure London rain.
Sergey Oh, yeah. It never happens ever. Wow. But you know like for me it's always when it's raining it seems like you you can work and not be you know kind of concerned that everyone else having fun somewhere on the outside right?
Emi No that doesn't work for me I don't care about stuff like that all I think is like why am I here why am I not in the sun I want to be outside you know I don't like seasons I hate seasons. Oh my god yeah I hate seasons if it was up to me just have summer, summer all year long. It's absolutely fine. I don't need spring. So, when everybody else, oh, the flowers are out. I'm like, yeah, okay, it's pretty, but yeah, just give me the summer.
3:30 How Emi Wound up Living in the UK and What Preceded This
Sergey And let's talk a little bit about your experience in the past because you don't like seasons for a reason. And I know that you've lived in a country where predominantly the sun is always there. So can you tell me a little bit um how did you wind up being in the UK working in the UK and what preceded this?
Emi Okay. So always like my career cuz I was born and raised in the UK. So that's where I started off after university. Um did biomedical sciences and that was an error. Should never have done biomedical sciences because I realized I would be a rubbish scientist. Um, and then when I graduated, I was working in London and it was cool. It was fun. You know, London's a great city in the summer. Um, but I just knew I knew that I wasn't supposed to live my life in London. And the main reason for it is because I don't, like I said, I don't like seasons, you know.
Emi So when I wanted to think about, okay, should I go traveling? Um, and that was an idea, you know, to go traveling and check out the rest of the world. And I love traveling, but I'm also not a backpacker. So, you from a from a young age, I'm I'm pretty bougie, you know, I can't live in hostel and I don't do that. I'm not going to get my backpack and like, you know, have one backpack of clothes. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I want to live in another country that is hot. Lived there for a period of time, experienced that kind of lifestyle. So went online, did a bit of research, came across Dubai and I thought, okay, I have no idea where Dubai is in the world. All I know that it looks cool, it's taxfree and it's sunny. So I like brilliant. And that's how I ended up landing in Dubai. And I went, yes, this is this is me. Um, unfortunately, I landed in the height of summer. So didn't realize that it's either hot or very hot. And it was very hot when I landed. It was like being in the oven, but got over it. I loved it. It was the best 12 years of my life.
5:22 What Emi Did to Allow Her to Travel and Make Money
Sergey What did you do at the time that allowed you to just travel like that and uh continue making money and paying your bills?
Emi Well, I was quite lucky. So, when I was in the UK, I worked for a recruitment agency. And there are only a few countries in the world where they, you know, they use recruitment agencies to fill their roles. um and Dubai and that whole region actually the GCC which is made of like Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar for example they have recruitment agencies. I was like right okay so I can live the lifestyle that I want but still stay within my career and so that is the job that I moved over to do. I joined another recruitment agency for a couple of years and then I moved inhouse. So at that point I started working for construction companies in their HR department heading up their recruitment teams.
Sergey So you said only few countries in the world uh largely use uh recruitment agencies. What is the time? And is it more widespread now?
Emi Yeah, it's a lot more widespread now. So at a time if people were looking to move overseas as a agency recruiter, you know, they'll go to Canada, they may go to Australia, they may go to New Zealand, and then they'll go to the GCC region, which includes Dubai. Now the market is a little bit more developed. So a lot more countries are using recruitment agencies than before.
6:49 Emi's Journey to Becoming a Recruiter
Sergey How did you came across this profession? Was it the first choice or was it the result of bumps and bruises?
Emi Oh, let me let me tell you there was a lot of bumps and bruises along the way. So, what actually happened is that okay, so let me get let me take a step back. So, I'm the child of two Nigerian parents and I don't know if you know anything about Nigerian parents, but especially when I was growing up, there were only few professions that was acceptable. So acceptable meant being a doctor, being a lawyer, being an accountant. Interesting. Yeah. Those are the type of professions. If I wanted to say, you know, creative, well, not a hope, that's a hobby. That's not a profession.
Emi Yeah. So, I was lucky, you know, I'm the firstborn. And I said, I want to be a doctor. And I went, yeah, tick. That is 100% um that's acceptable. That that is acceptable. And I was like, great. So, my entire life, I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to be a doctor. I'm going to be a doctor and I never thought about a plan B. I just didn't I like cuz in my head that was what I was going to do. I was going to be Dr. Berugo and I was going to be pediatrician because I like children.
Emi Now unfortunately what actually happened on my last day of school um my dad um was driving. He he was in he was an engineer. He was driving and whilst he was driving he had a stroke and so yeah so it was and when he had a stroke he immediately went into a coma and that was my last day of school. So obviously that's like real turbulent sad times. I was not concentrating. I had to do my degree so my A levels to go to medical school and I just couldn't concentrate in my exams. So I didn't get the grades. I didn't get the grades and all of a sudden it was the first major thing that's actually happened to me. major negative thing and I'm like, well, I don't know what to do now.
Emi When my results came in, I was like, I I don't know what to do. Um, I was supposed to be a doctor. I haven't got the grades anymore. Now, my mom during this time, he was still in a coma. My mom being quite education orientated um said, "Look, your dad would have wanted this. He would have wanted you to go to university." So, yes, okay, you haven't got the grades for medical school, but that doesn't mean that you can't look at something else aligned to medicine. So I did biomedical sciences and I did my biomedical sciences and very quickly realized oh I cannot be a scientist.
10:37 How Emi Switched from Science
Sergey But but wait but did you have a predisposition like did you like how how did you realize that it wasn't something that fit you?
Emi I so I like science. I really love science and I particularly like biology. What I didn't realize is that biomedical sciences and actually which trains you really good course if you want to be a biomedical scientist was very chemistry orientated and to so to be in the lab all the time the laboratory doing like you know chemical titrations where you have to do one drop I don't have that attention to detail I I swear in the three years I was there the amount of times I mocked up my science like kind of laboratory and I was like oh okay muck it up again I've just been here for 3 hours that was a waste of time and then I'll go to the the geeky people in the class go, "Sorry, I marked up again. Can you give me your results so I could actually like so I could actually pass?" So I was like, "No, that's that's how I knew the chemistry side of things, the laboratory side. That definitely wasn't for me, but I enjoyed the biology side. I enjoyed learning about the human body. That is what I enjoyed. So it just wasn't quite the career for me." That's what I realized.
Sergey And and how did the switch happen? How did you shift to...
Emi So when the university I went to was a really good university like in the top five and there's about 107 I think I think it's 107 universities in the UK. So great university. And then can you name the university? Yeah, sure. It's Durham University. Yeah. So it's a kind of university where if you didn't get into Oxford and Cambridge, you'll go to like Durham, you know, but people will go, "Oh, no, I chose Darham." It's like, "No, you didn't." Cuz if you had the choice, you'd go to Cambridge. But yeah, so I was like, "No, Darren University is a great university." They had loads of contacts with like people within industry. So when the time came to do work experience, you know, they had great like companies lining up to like say, "Hey, come and work for us over the summer." Now the problem was I had no interest in that. I wanted to go to America and like kind of be in the sun. So every year whereas all my friends were doing proper internships and work experience, I went to America and I worked in SeaWorld.
Emi Which is not really acceptable to say you work at SeaWorld now, but at the time it was okay. I was one of the people like selling the the Shamu dolphin. So I was like, "Come and get your Shamu dolphin." I'm English, so I got loads of tips. I'm like, "This is brilliant." you know, so I basically did that. I did Bush Gardens, I did SeaWorld, and then I worked out in a country club in Long Island. So when I graduated, it was like great, I got a good degree from a good university, but I don't have great work experience. I was like, "Oh god, okay, what do I do?" I said, "What am I good at? I'm good at talking." Yeah, I'm good at talking. I was like, "This is not hard." Yeah, exactly. So maybe I'll go into sales. And I went into sales and it was fun because I was just like, well, I'm getting paid to talk to people and give them a product that they want. My skill set was there. I was like, this is fantastic. And it was great for a couple of years and then I started to get a little bit, okay, this is not quite what I want to do for the rest of my life.
Emi I would say that goes back to the situation with my dad because when I going back when I was in that situation obviously it was me, my mom and my sister. So dad was still he was in a coma for a long time and then even when he came out he was in hospital for a long time like I'm talking about a couple of years in hospital because he had brain injury and I had to grow up really quickly really quickly. So I became very independent um very quickly. I had to be an adult and at 18 onwards also the learning I got out of that situation is that life is short. You never know when something could happen. It could and you and what are you going to do? One of my biggest thing is like look I'm not going to be a victim. You know life is crap. Things come out you know left field but what are you going to do? You can either choose to be upset for however long and continue to stay upset or you can be upset in that moment and then go right okay I don't want to be upset forever I'm going to find a positive what is that positive who do I need to go to.
Emi So when I was in that job in sales and I realized look I enjoyed the the social aspect. I enjoy talking to people but it's not fulfilling me in other ways. So I started to talk to friends. I started to talk to look on YouTube and Google and just go right okay what what skills do I have um that still allows me to interact with people and people said try recruiting and I was like okay okay let's try that and I joined a recruitment agency like that.
18:23 Why People Want to Settle Down
Sergey Why do people want to why do people want to settle? Why do people say stay like complacent? Like why why is that? Why would people don't like new new challenges?
Emi because it's unknown, right? It's I would say it's because people are, you know, there's a phrase that people are scared of change. They're fearful of change. Okay? And why is that? Because challenging the status quo, whether it's, you know, leaving an organization, leaving a town, um could be even leaving a relationship. That is scary because you're going into unknown territory and you don't know how you're going to manage in that unknown territory. But you know how to do this what you're doing now. You might not like it, but you know it. You know it inside out. You know what to expect. And that and that's I think that's what it boils down to.
Emi So that is it easy to push yourself out of your comfort zones. No. But I think pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, embracing change, being open to change, that is what makes you grow as a person because new opportunities come your way that you never would have experienced, never would have even imagined would come your way.
Emi The person I am now is very different to the person that I probably would have been if I didn't go abroad. You know, you mentioned the podcast. So that makes me laugh because um if you obviously talking to me now and anyone probably listening would just think oh yeah I'm a natural talker so to do a podcast and be a monthly co-host that would be easy. Let me tell you something. If you ask me three and a half years ago would I be doing a podcast and talking in public or even talking on stage because I do quite a bit of talking now. Never. I can talk in front of my team. I I I'm not talking in public. I am not doing that.
Emi And you know what happened? I was at a networking evening. Someone asked me opinion on a topic and I gave my opinion and thought nothing of it. went on holiday a week later, looked at my LinkedIn, which I shouldn't do on holiday, but looked at my LinkedIn and somebody went, "Hey, you've been recommended to talk by someone." I was like, "By who?" And they mentioned a name. I was like, "What? The person I just met at the networking dinner?" I literally met her at that night. Really? They recommended you to talk. Yeah. So, did you accept? I accepted and then I went, "Oh, Christ. What am I doing? This is not what I like." Always say yes. And dragged along a few people from my current job with me. I was like, listen, I need moral support. And I dragged along my old manager. I was like, help me because I need to see friendly faces. And it was scary. But you know what? Now it's so much easier.
26:43 The Power of Core Skills Across Careers
Sergey Can you talk to the matter of building the core skill set right that then can help you with various professions? But the core skill set it must be there — like for you is speaking abilities and what else?
Emi Well what I would say there's no core skill set for every single job you know because each job requires different um technical job specific skills or knowledge and each job requires a certain set of behaviors. So there are you still have to restudy everything. You have to I think you just have to be continuous learner but also not put the pressure on yourself to think I need to go from here to here straight away in one step. There's a thing called squiggly careers. So whereas in the past it used to be like a linear line, you know, you start off at this level, you go up and up and up the career ladder, now people are taking a squiggly path to get to where they're at.
Emi So Oh, really? Yeah. So and that squiggly path may happen because you think, okay, right now I don't have all the skill sets, so the next job is going to get me a little bit closer. The next job is going to get me a little bit closer. Or it might happen because the job that you are or you want and will actually end up doing for a significant period of your time, it may not even exist yet. So when I started, for example, in agency recruiting way back when, the job I have now didn't exist. It didn't even exist four years ago in most of the UK.
Emi I say set yourself short-term, medium-term, long-term goals, but don't be married to them because you got to be open to the fact that your goals may change over time. But if you think, okay, you look at, let's say, a job on LinkedIn, you go, okay, that job looks amazing. I think I'll be really good at that. And then you look at all the experience, you go, hm, okay, I'm taking five out of the 10 of requirements for the role. Okay, so what do I need to get better at? Maybe I'm not so strong at, let's say, presentation skills, verbal presentation skills. Um, how can I develop those verbal presentation skills in my current job? Well, they have we have team meetings. Do I ever put my hands up for team meetings? No. Okay. Well, how can I speak to my manager or my colleagues and go, "Hey, the next time we have a team meeting, can I be a speaker? Can I take over this slot?"
Emi I even though at the beginning of the year I said, "Yeah, I'm gonna have a low-key year this year." Uh, no, I still have like do about a million things outside of my day job, one of them is working with a sports body where I'm on their board. I'm the HR and DEI representative for England Touch Rugby. There are parts of that role which I know that sometime like it makes me laugh. I would go to that board meeting and they're talking about, you know, they get to the finance person's part and they talk about the profit and loss. I'm telling you, nearly every meeting I'm lost when they get to that section. I'm like, sorry, what is that line? What are they talking about? I'm a HR professional. I like I don't understand this. Well, what do I do? I will listen. I will take notes. I will go back and go, "Right, what was that word they said? Let me go back and research that." So, what's that doing? That's broadening my day-to-day experience. So broadening my skill set and now means I'm a little bit more commercially minded in my day job. And if there's a role in the future that requires me to be you know let's say if I go the next level up and I look after a much larger budget, of course I have to be more financially savvy but that job outside of my day job is that's what's helping me. So it doesn't have to be in your current job it could be in your network it could be having to do a doing a voluntary scheme could be listening to podcasts. But you can pick up skills literally from anywhere.
31:19 What Makes a Great Recruiter
Sergey What do you think makes a great recruiter? First of all, can we just define uh main terms? Uh, TA professional to talent acquisition is the same as a recruiter?
Emi So this is their old debate. If you ask me, a talent acquisition professional is the same as a recruiting professional is the same as a resourcing professional. It's the same. It's just a new word for the same thing. Yeah. But you get some people who are precious and go, "No, talent acquisition is the more sophisticated version of recruiting. It's more strategic." I'm like, "It's the same." It was like, "I've had all the titles and it's the same job." So yeah, so it's all about hiring people into the organization. The best people for that role. So the best people in terms of skill set, in terms of um people who are going to add to the organization, in terms of culture, in terms of driving an organization first, that is what a talent acquisition, recruitment professional, a resourcing professional, that is what they do.
Emi And also there are head hunters that work independently, right? Yeah. So head hunters for me also um the only difference head hunters you won't necessarily find within an organization. So a non-recruiting agency organization — let me say you will find them in a recruitment agency but again you get people who are precious about their job title. So I worked for a great organization called Michael Page you know that that was almost like the university of how to recruit within a recruitment agency. But then people will go to other firms and say I'm a head hunter now. It's like you were headhunting when you worked at Michael Page. Your job is the same.
Emi headunting just means instead of waiting for people to apply for your job, you are now going out to people. You are going, "Oh, this person looks like they'll be a fantastic match for my role and my organization. Let me now approach that person proactively." And that's a skill to go to someone and say, "Hey, I know that you might not even be looking. You never even heard of my organization. How can I convince you just to even be open to talking to me?" And then once you're open to talking, how can I convince you to — have you ever headhunted someone? 100%. You've got to do that whether agency or you're working inhouse for a company. You know, you got to go to people go, "Hey, you don't know who I am, but you need to talk to me and you don't know my company, but my company is the best company in the world." But just telling someone this is the best company in the world doesn't make any difference. It needs to be the best company for them, you know? So, what are you actually offering them?
Emi Which means you have to get really good at listening as well and finding out people's passion and people's motivations right now and in the future. That is a skill. How do you get someone that you don't know to open up and say this is actually what I want to do in my life? You go ah brilliant. My job does this. That's a skill. So that is a skill of headhunting. Whether you have the title head hunter or you have the title of a recruiter in a company or in a recruitment agency, headhunting is the actual skill.
34:57 The Go-to Story About Headhunting
Sergey Do you have the go-to story about headhunting or recruiting someone who you close? Some deal that you sealed and you were super proud of yourself?
Emi Yeah. So I would say that when I moved initially from working in recruitment agency and then I worked for a quantity surveying firm. So within the construction field. Um, there was a role I think it was called a contracts manager and I was finding it really difficult. I was like, I can't find anyone who's got the skill set that they're looking for. And then I just struck luck like on LinkedIn searching, trying everything because you have to type in keywords to bring up the right person. And then I found this one person called Craig and I was like, "Oh, that person is the person that — somehow how am I going to get in contact with that person?" Sent like crafted my email to make it enticing. The email response I got back was, "Hey, thanks for reaching out, but I've just signed a job offer."
Emi And I'm like, "I don't care. I'm not giving up because I literally have a small pool of people for this role who are suitable for the role." And so I said, "Hey, let's just — That's fantastic that you got a job offer. Congratulations. When do you — have you started yet, though?" No. Oh, there's still time to have a chat then. Just have a chat. Just like hear about it and if you're interested, then you can find out a little bit more. You're not starting until a month's time. So, he got on the line with me. We had a great conversation. Like, it was like he was fun, but his skill set was right for the role. And I knew that he would work really well with the director of that department. So, once I told him about — you knew that that was a match in their personalities, right? Oh, it was a match in terms of personality. It was a match in terms of the skill set. It was a match in terms of what he could bring to the organization. And it was a match in terms of what he said his motivations were, what he was looking for.
Emi So then I said, based on what I told you, how does this role that I'm telling you about compare to the offer that you've just signed? And he said, well, this one sounds more interesting. I was like, fantastic. And he go, but Emmy, I start in three days. And I was like, okay, I have a four stage interview process. I'm like, how can I condense four stages into literally a couple of days? I did. I worked my magic and I said, look to the director, look at this person. He is what you're looking for. We turned it around. He declined the other offer. He joined my organization. We're still friends.
Emi But you know what but that skill that story that I told you — you know finding out what people's needs and what their um you know what their actual motivations are — you can take that in any single job. So for example you want to go out you want to get new clients but you might not — you have to find out if you're a match for that client. So what what did he want for the Chad and Cheese podcast? You have to find out what he actually wants. What are his goals? Where does he want the podcast to go and then you match your skills, your abilities, your services to his needs. That's how you got it. That's still that skill set is not just a recruiter skill set. You can do that every single job.
38:33 Do We Ever Get to Choose Our Clients?
Sergey When we begin either as a recruiter or as a business owner there you don't have that much choice right — you don't have that much luxury to choose. But at some point we can we can start choosing. What's your take on this?
Emi I think that okay so we we can take this with any of the roles that you mentioned or just a job within an organization. There are times that people are going to ask you to do something. There are times that people are going to approach you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you are the right person to do it or that you want to do it. You may not want to, but let's say that you listen to them. Someone comes to you with an ask. You listen to them. What are you looking for? Why are you looking for this? What are you trying to achieve? And then you think about yourself. You do a self evaluation and self-reflection. Do I have that skill set? Do I have the time? Do I have the passion? If those two align then you can move forward.
Emi And that's where I have that within my organization now — Emmy can you help me to do this — it's not what we do but what I will do is be helpful and I will put you in touch with somebody who can help you. So like no but like you deny but you say what you can do for them. You should always help because just because you can't help them today. It doesn't mean that you can't help them in the future because their needs will always evolve and your situation may evolve. So, in the future, yes, you can maybe work together, but if you don't help them by putting in touch maybe with someone who can or offering advice on where to go to find the help, they're not going to come back to you.
Sergey There's a book by Greg McKenon. He wrote essentialism and it seems to me that what you're saying falls directly into his rule book. He says he's got a rule that if it's not a definite yes, then it's a no.
Emi I would say it could be it's just not a definite yes right now. Just because someone doesn't say yes now it doesn't mean that it's a no forever. Yeah. Okay. Because things may change. So I would challenge that a little bit. I understand where he's coming from. Um but I think it's a little bit too rigid, you know.
44:43 Detachment and Boundaries in Business Leadership
Sergey As a business owner, I actually try to detach myself emotionally from, for example, when people decide to leave. I've just recently had this guy who's been working with me for a year saying that he no longer wants to do a specific part of our job. And I don't know how I still I'm still trying to understand how I feel about it. I think high performing individuals at some point they should take a step in order to like maybe create some boundaries. And I cannot be bitter about it as a business owner. What do you think about this?
Emi Okay, so what I would say first of all your what I'm hearing is that you know initially it was kind of like a bit hurtful. It's like ah you're leaving me. Yeah. And it's like why like you know like stabbing me in the back or something. But that is common because you've worked with somebody you developed a vision together you know you think ah this person together we're going to help you know take the organization to the next level. So when someone leaves you, of course, or says they want to leave because what they want no longer aligns with what you want, is it painful? Yes.
Emi But should you detach yourself emotionally? I would say no. Because you just because they leave, it doesn't mean that you no longer care about that individual. It doesn't no longer mean that you no longer want the best for that individual. And I get it. Don't get me wrong. I love my team. I think my team that I have now is brilliant as as are you know the team members I've had in other jobs but I also am well aware that some members in my team do not want to stand still or they want to go they're using this almost as a stepping stone. This is good for them now but they have taken this job or applied for that job because it's going to help them to develop the skill set that's going to allow them to do what they want in the future. And that's okay. They're not leaving you as an individual.
Emi Or if they are, that's a problem because then you have to self-reflect and go, who am I as a leader and how do I better myself? But if you've done your job, your job is to help them to get better. Your help and get them to the next level, then it's great. Once you see them leave, you go, this is bittersweet. It's hurtful. It's like it's sad because you're like, oh, we had all these plans together. Well, you had the plans and you know I have the plans for my team, but you got them to the next level and that is your job.
48:03 Does Emi Ever Hold Grudges?
Sergey Do you do you ever hold grudges at all?
Emi Oh, I'd love to say I don't hold grudges, right? Okay. So, I'm um I do these MyersBriggs um like personality things and so I'm an ESTJ and the J part — yeah, I am quite I am naturally a judgy person. So, if someone pisses me off, trust me, my natural reaction is to give him like a bombastic side eye and I have to like kind of control myself. I'm like, you know, I think about what situation am I in? I'm at work. Yeah. I was like, who do you think you're talking to? And especially if I'm in work setting, I'm like, hold on, let me — I need to pay my bills. Do not get fired from this job. So that is my natural default setting which means that am I also can be a little bit petty sometimes. Yeah, I can. I know as a default I can hold grudges if you piss me off enough.
Emi However, what because I know this about myself and because I know that I'm naturally judgy and I know that I can hold grudges. What I try to do all the time is remember who I am as a person and go be better. Because when you hold a grudge, nine times out of 10, the person that you holding a grudge with, they don't care. They've moved on. They're not even thinking about you. You're like a literally the furthest in their mind, whereas you're sitting there going every time you see them. They don't care. They they don't remember you. So, who are you actually hurting? You're actually hurting yourself. You're causing yourself an inconvenience. So, let it go. Let like the song's going to start singing a Frozen song, but yeah. But you literally let it go. If it's not actually helping you then and it's not benefiting you to hold the grudge — let literally and nine times out of 10 it won't benefit you.
Emi Plus a breakup even if it's in a personal relationship it's always a learning experience and a growing experience. Right. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you have like when you break up with someone you have to like get going, "Oh my god, you're the best person ever. So sad that we're not together." Cuz sometimes, "Thank you for our time together." Cuz you might sit there and go, "No, they're a dick." Yeah. You know, but that doesn't mean like you have to forgive them. Um it or like it just means that you just put it there. That was a chapter of your life. What did I learn? I'm moving forward because I'm not going to sit there wallowing about a past relationship for however many years.
50:50 Importance of Network in Life and Business
Sergey How important is the network effect in life and in business?
Emi I would say very — so in personal I definitely think that you cannot do everything by yourself. And this is coming from someone whose default is to almost be too independent and to try and figure things out by myself because like I said with the dad situation it was like okay who else is going to help me? like I need to sort myself out. But then at times you got to realize that that can help you so far. But you have sometimes narrow tunnel vision. Yeah. You need to rely on friends for example and let and you know my friends if they ever listen to this podcast I said it to them. Yeah. That I've got friends who literally go Emmy talk to me. How are you feeling? D. Oh so nice of them. They know what I'm like. So Emmy I haven't heard from you — what's happening in this situation? Have you done this? And I'm like, no, no, haven't done it. Okay, thank you. Talk to me. How are you feeling? Because they know that that's not my it's not easy for me to reach out and ask for help. So, my social network is super important.
Emi Professional network is exactly the same. Because unfortunately or fortunately I say in this day and age 2025 most things you cannot achieve by yourself. Do you have a gap in skill set you know which means that technically you cannot fulfill the task by yourself. You might need let's say for example you want to introduce a change to an organization. My job and my team's job is all about introducing change, getting people to adopt a new tool, getting people to change their behavior, getting people to change their mindset. We are constantly throwing change at them and we need them to adopt that change. Who helps me with that? Having advocates internally. So I'm a professional network who I can rely on and say look hey we're about to roll out this — help my team say that this is a good thing — someone the first two guys who will first two couple of dominoes, right? They need to fall. Yeah. So, 100%. Professionally, personally, 100%. You need your tribe around you.
Sergey What if someone feels like a lone wolf? What if someone feels like they cannot belong anywhere?
Emi And and I get that. And I get there's lots of people like that. I've been in a few situations where I just go, "Nah, this is not me. I don't feel comfortable at all." You could start your own tribe because if you feel a certain way, there could be other people who feel exactly the same way as you. And you know, so you can have that for example in a work scenario where you're the only person from your country or the only female. You think you're the only person, but you know what? When you reach out, there are other people who feel the same way as you.
Emi I'll give you a stupid example but just to illustrate the point. I came from before joining Elastic — so my current organization — I came from a UK organization. All the employees are from the UK. I am also a massive reality TV fan and one of my favorite programs is Love Island. I love Love Island. I love it. I honestly — how many season there are over the world already? In the UK there's 10. And I've just started the US one, but there's Australia on. It's brilliant. I love it.
Emi Um, but yes, but when I worked at my previous organization, it was cool. There was loads of people I could talk to about Love Island. And then I came to Elastic — Global organization. And I'm like, talk to my team members. Who watches Love Island here? No. Oh, okay. So, I can't talk to my team. No. Excellent. So, I'm like trying to find people in the organization. Most of them in the US. I'm like, who am I going to talk to about Love Island? Am I the only person who likes Love Island? So, what did I do? I sent a Slack message initially to my recruitment team. And I go, "Hey, nonwork-related email." And I just started. I was like, "Non work related — I'm missing talking to people about Love Island. Does anyone like Love Island UK?" And the people like, "Me? Oh, I do. I do." So, what did I do? I set up a Slack community, the Love Island Appreciation Society in my — I found my tribe. I found my tribe of people. So, you don't have to wait for people to come to you. You can go out and find people and go, "Hey — who else thinks like me?"
58:09 Emi's Tips for Finding Fulfillment and Loving What You Do
Sergey A few words as we wrap up. How do we find something that we love in life? How do we become fulfilled and how do we enjoy life? Maybe some tips from you.
Emi Sure. Okay. So, how do you find what you like? You can do a bit of a self-reflection exercise and almost like, you know, a to-do list. Pros and cons, likes, dislikes, you know, and it could be stupid. It could be as stupid, like I said, as my love for reality TV. Why do I like reality TV? Because it's escapism. Yeah. It could be, oh, the country — I don't like being cold. But that not being cold leads me to go, oh, but I like living in warm countries. Yeah. You know, it could be that I don't like being in a space where people are not like me. So, how can I then go — what I do like is finding my tribe of people. So, if by writing that list and just even starting there, it's almost like that self evaluation exercise. And then you can highlight and go right these are my likes or this is what I know about myself — what is the most important for me — so then you can start ranking it. I'm not saying that that's like a daily exercise it might take a week it might take a few months to really get to know yourself but I think that's definitely the first thing that you need to do to try and understand yourself as a person.
Emi And then in terms of fulfillment — yeah — from from from doing that list and then going these are my priorities. You have to almost make a promise to yourself to accept that some of these things that you don't have in your life right now — and if you want to have it in your life it means challenging your status quo. So the status quo of your environment, whether it's a work environment, a family environment, your friendship environment, whatever, you have to be willing to go, I'm going to rock things up because if I want to achieve XYZ, if I want to have this in my life, I'm going to have to push myself outside of my comfort zone and do something that I'm not really comfortable with. And you can take baby steps to get there. You don't have to do like what I did, get on a plane and go, "Right, Dubai. I don't even know anything about Dubai. Let's go there." You know, it doesn't have to be that big, but sometimes that this is the only thing that works for people who cannot take baby steps. Sometimes you really have to take a leap.
Emi Yeah. Sometimes, literally, sometimes you do have to, you know — I'm scared, terrified of heights. Stupidly, I went ziplining the longest like fastest zipline in the world. I literally thought my heart was going to jump out my chest. I'm like, why? Why did I do that first? I could have started with a baby zipline, you know? No, no, no. I chose the biggest one in the world to try and get with fear of my fear of heights. I mean, I'm still terrified of heights, but sometimes sometimes that's what you need to do. Take the big step. Other times you do baby steps and just, you know, like I said, if you think about going to another country, how about just visit that country first of all? You don't have to go straight away. How instead of like a three-day weekend, why don't you stay there for two weeks? Because in that time, you get to see not just a touristy side, you get to maybe understand what it might like to live there. Why not reach out to somebody in that country? We got Facebook, we've got LinkedIn and go, "Hey, I'm in a country. I'm interested in finding out."
Sergey Emmy, this was so so great. Thank you so much.
Emi No worries.