John Golden

Why am I assuming I'm a good podcaster? Have you watched other podcasts? Have you watched your own podcast back? Have you gone, okay, I can improve on this?

I believe in the compound effect. And I think Chris Williamson with Modern Wisdom podcast, Steven Bartlett with the Diary of the CEO, they both said that there were like two to three years where like pretty much no one gave a damn.

Sometimes people contact me and say, "I started a podcast and you know, I did 20 episodes and nothing is happening."

Yeah, nothing's happening. And I say, "Yeah, you know, try doing 200."

Let's talk about podcast about podcasting. Uh, so your podcast is called Tell me the name.

Sales Pop.

Sales Pop, right? And uh what is it about and what are the benefits that you in your view were able to yield you know from running this show?

Yeah. So it's interesting uh so we started sales pop I think in about around 2018. So I think we've been doing it for about seven years now. It's coming into our seventh year. Um when we started it was focused pretty much 100% on sales. Now it's more like sales, marketing, leadership, entrepreneurialism, business. Sometimes we get into into things even like we did a whole series on mental health at one stage too because which is very relevant to salespeople anyway because my goodness does anybody else have a job where they get rejected more and they get told no more. I mean people sometimes overlook uh you know that that side of sales that it's a tough it's a tough job for people you know you have to be mental fortitude is is very important.

but we started it initially is that we wanted to just bring education we're big big believers in education and we wanted to help salespeople be better and bring them good education and then we thought okay we're pretty good at at writing and creating content ourselves and we would continue to do that. But there's all these people around the globe with great ideas and insights. So we thought, well, why not go and interview them? And so we started off and then going looking for interesting people to to interview and bring that content to the market.

And then over time it began to grow and we reached the point I mean today Sergey to be honest like is we we don't we don't outreach to anybody. Uh it's people come to us, podcast booking agencies come to us. We have more people to interview than we possibly can manage at any one time to be perfectly honest.

Um and what but what I what I like about it and the benefit of it is is it builds you a community because you you interview all of these people. So it builds a community. Um it allows them to bring their ideas to your audience. That's number two, right? Yeah. It allows you then to then it allows you to build a body of content as well because let's face it, if I interview 10 different people about leadership, right? I now have 10 different perspectives. If I pull out the ideas of different people, I have now wonderful content coming from 10 different sources. Um, I take the best idea out of everybody. So, it generates fantastic fantastic content.

I think I think another one I think it's very if you do it properly and you do it long enough and you produce a quality product at the end I think it enhances your brand and your reputation.

I know now and and I just give you a small example.

give an example and also tell me when have you really noticed that it started reshaping your brand and or brand started increasing brand awareness because a lot of podcasters they kind of uh lose faith you know when there is no traction. So when did it happen for you?

Well, um, in many ways it's still happening because it's an ongoing process. Uh, and uh, and but what I would always say to people and and this is I'm glad you raised this because I get asked a lot often and sometimes people contact me and say, "Oh, I I I started a podcast particularly during Covid like lots of people decided to start podcasts but you know I started a podcast and you know I did I did 20 episodes and you know nobody nothing is happening."

Yeah. nothing's happening and I say yeah and they go well well what I say and I say you know try doing 200 and they were like that's a lot of them but it's almost like and then I mean we've done nearly I think 1,700 at this stage or maybe 1,800 I can't remember I I I lose count but my point being it's like podcasting is like anything else it's not an overnight thing right it doesn't just happen overnight.

and I think people have these unrealistic expectations because they'll see a podcast from a celebrity or they'll see Joe Rogan and they say look he got millions of views and you're going yes he's a celebrity he's got a name and well Joe Rogan built that for he was the first one there but you see these other people and you think they've already got a brand this is an extension of their brand um you don't have a brand you're trying to build one and the only way you're going to build one is to produce quality content over a long period of time.

So if you're not prepared prepared to do it for the long haul. Then I would say don't do it. If you're going to give up after 10 or 20 or after 50 you're going to say, "I'm still only getting 10 views." Um well, number one, I think you're looking at it the wrong way because you should be looking at that as content you can use on LinkedIn. You can maybe use um for blog posts you can use to create white papers. You can use that content in multiple different ways. So that's what you should be looking at.

But you should be also asking yourself, am I improving? Yeah. Am I getting better as a podcast or is there if I watch my own podcast, is there a good reason why somebody else should want to watch it?

I think that's another part, Sergey. I think sometimes people start podcasts and they and they again they're looking at these metrics and you know they're saying the views or whatever instead of going I've just started this. I'm not I'm not I never went to I never I didn't go to college to be a podcaster. Um why am I assuming I'm a good podcaster? Have you watched other podcasts? Have you taken Have you watched your own podcast back? Have you gone, okay, I can improve on this? And what I always encourage people, Sergey, is have you gone on other people's podcasts? Because until you go on other people's podcasts as a guest, you can't understand the experience that your guest is having.

So, I would say it is you have to go into it with the attitude of it's a long-term investment of your time and and energy, maybe some money. If you're not prepared to do it for the long haul, you're not prepared to say it's going to take me a year or two to even get established even at a very base level, then don't do it. uh a go find some other you know I mean this isn't one of those things where you can you know follow these three steps and overnight you're going to have thousands of views no it's not one of those things and if you don't have the patience or or and I would say if you don't have the patience or the will to do it over the long term you you that should tell you that it's not for you anyway you're just looking

I believe in the compound effect and I think Chris Williamson with modern wisdom podcast. Steven Bartlett with the diary of the CEO. They both said that there were there were like three two to three years where like pretty much no one gave a damn, you know, and then everything exploded. So, but they just kept consistently publishing new episodes. So I think the underlying factor here in addition to what you you what you eloquently outlined is the love for this type of work in general right I think we both will love connecting communicating we know that we might be wrong somewhere we're open to constructive criticism. We're open to opinions that do not coincide with others. So, it's also somewhat maturity that plays the role in you being able to love the process.

Yeah, I I that's really well put, Sergey. Really, really well put. But, yeah, you have to enjoy it. You have to get something out of it. I always say that I I when some people sometimes go, "Oh, well, what would you describe yourself as an expert in this and what?" I say, "No, no, I I would describe myself as a seeker of wisdom." And what I like to do and what I think about the podcast is I learn from everybody I talk to.

And that's why when when somebody comes on my podcast, I'm not I'm not there to challenge their ideas. I mean I'm not there to go ah yes but let me let me contradict you or I don't agree with what you're saying is what I'm there to do is to give them an opportunity to talk about whatever they're talking about and to extract insights from them and then ask ask searching questions so that they can give more value but I say I've learned so much to be honest I've learned so much from people over the years and often times I'll go like you know if nobody else gets anything out of this only me well that's Okay, because I learned something new today and and I think it's valuable for the rest of the world. Hopefully, other people will see that, too.

But I think you're 100% correct. I think you have to love the process. I think you have to love to learn and I think you have to love to meet interesting people. I mean, the people I've I've interviewed, some of them are just I mean, I sometimes come off the podcast, just sit there for a few moments, go, "Wow, what an interesting life or what an interesting thing they're doing or what a really interesting perspective they have."

And it's very very enriching. But I think you're right. It's if you're just doing it going, "Okay, will this get me? How many views will this get me?" You you're going about it the wrong way.

transactional approach similar to what we discussed. We're building relationships. And when I when I tell people that yeah, you can use podcast as a vehicle for building like a business or even selling something, but you should never push push it. I mean, first thing is that your first job is to connect with with people. And in in the in the interest of full disclosure, I I must say that I'm not I'm still learning how to just pull out the red carpet in front of my guests and let them shine, you know, because at times I get taken away and I start saying something for too long, you know, and people are not there for me. However, we should also should not diminish our roles as hosts in this process, right?

Yeah. No, no, we should never dimin and and it is a learning experience. And I think uh uh the greatest compliment you can get is when you finish a podcast and the other person goes, "Wow, you're you're a great interviewer or those were really great questions or wow, I wasn't expecting that question. That was really good." those because people appreciate that because they don't want they nobody wants to have this thing where you've sent me five questions and I'm going so silly about this and then I wait five minutes while you answer and then I go and then this I mean they want to.

I always how I always describe it is I describe it as a conversation between two people right and it's like if you were sitting there if you're sitting on a bus or you're sitting on a plane and you happen to be behind these two people and you're just you're eavesdropping on a really fascinating conversation and that's what I feel like a good podcast is. It's a conversation between two people. You know, one person you're just trying to provide the opportunity asking good questions so the other person can can talk about whatever their their subject is and you're and the listener you're there going, "Wow, this is really cool. This is interesting." And I think that makes for the best podcast.

follow up on this, like I I run a video production uh agency and we specifically work with podcasts and my biggest customer is Chad and Cheese Podcast that are one of the biggest podcast in HR industry in TA industry in in America. And their concept was like what would it like to overhear two guys talking in a bar? Yeah. Who are drinking. And you know, every single times when we're working or that I'm or when I'm watching the final product, I actually see a lot of times, first of all, one of them is drinking because they have time difference. One usually is in Europe, the second one is in America, right? So the the the one that in Europe, Chad, shout out to you, my man, is is is already drinking some beer at 6:00 p.m. or something. But I mean, yeah, it's it's like uh no no um limitations. They do they do use some some, you know, 18 plus language, but I mean that all makes for the great podcast. And I'm I'm totally totally uh on board that we should not try to uh make or try to do it to make it too robotic. Just not overthinking and and be yourself. That's

But I think that's Yeah. And I and I think, you know, it's a great name to uh but I think that's an important point just that you raised is is about being yourself and deciding on your podcast, right? For instance, like you're saying like, you know, maybe they use some uh choice language on that one, right? I don't I keep mine completely clean and I say to people, we don't. And it's just because that's I started out that way and that's the way I wanted to do it. And you know, therefore, it's a choice. It's just a choice. It's not uh it's not anything else.

But I'm also say to people is don't create a podcast persona. Right. Don't create a personality that you don't have. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Be yourself. Absolutely. Exactly. Be yourself. But I have seen people sur I've seen people who who you know try to be funny when they're not funny. Right. If you're not a naturally funny person, not everybody is, then don't. Because you know something, there is a role for people who are serious, who are analytical. Um there they can be, you know, that can be what some people are looking for. So I would say don't try to be somebody else. Don't create. Don't suddenly go when the when the light comes on suddenly don't go, "Hey, I'm now Mr. Podcast Guy." Just just be yourself.

Cool. Well said, man. I'm also super excited to know that you you wrote two books, not one, but two. and and writing a book is something that I have in my um wish list, you know, and before I die thing. Can you tell me shortly how did it happen for you? Was it sort of like writing a dissertation just putting out all of your existing knowledge and you didn't give too much of a thought to it? or was it a really conscious mature decision to write a book?

Yeah. Well, it was very conscious uh decision because I was working like I was CEO at Healthweight at the time and McGraill was the publisher of spinning and that and how the book came the first book came about actually was and this is an interesting one for people out there just like podcasting and blogging it it came from a blog post. I wrote this blog post about for salespeople about when you are stuck, when you're not closing any business, every deal is going south. I said sometimes you just need one small victory.

And I and I use the example of George Washington and it was uh during the American Revolution uh the American Continental Army had been defeated many times. There were sickness. They were running short of people. What most people don't know is a lot of the people had signed up on like contracts like I'll fight for 6 months and then I'm going back to my farm. So, a lot of those people were coming up at the end of their contract and it was looking pretty desperate and it was looking like the the revolution was going to collapse.

And then Washington decided to say, "Okay, it was in the middle of winter. We're going to get in boats. We're going to go across the Delaware River and we're going to attack where there were Hesshen mercenaries were were holed up for the winter." Right? So they weren't expecting didn't expecting anybody to attack in winter and especially not across the river. So he he his men, you know, they jumped in the boats and he led them across the Delaware. They surprised the Hessians, you know, defeated them and that victory then ignited the re the the the you know the US side and people were well there weren't the US at that stage but you know the uh the uh the the the revolutionaries and after that then the war turned in their favor because more people joined and it became but it was just that one small like just grabbing that one small victory.

So anyway, that was the blog post and then we took it to McGra Hill and said, "Would this be interesting? Do you think there's a book here where we could use analogies like this?" And they said, "We actually just pitched an idea blog post." Yeah. And they said, "Oh, that's an interesting." And they said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So we uh so then myself and and a researcher and stuff and then we actually hired somebody to do cartoons. So every chapter has a cartoon at the beginning that kind of illustrates the battle. Like funny cartoons, they're they're good. But but yeah, it came from it came from literally came from a blog post and then pitching an idea to say, "Do you think there's a a book in this if we did this? If we did many different sales lessons using the analogies of battles and history?" and they said, "Yeah, yeah."

but nothing of this would be possible without a you being uh employed where you were being employed and b not having this publisher as a connection, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would have well it would have been a lot harder. Um however, today today the landscape is very different. I mean today like yeah people still want to be published by you know well-known publishers but they don't understand either the reality of it is um you know number one most publishers most most business books especially if it's a business book or whatever literally sell about 3,000 copies if they're lucky in their lifetime. Um, so tough truth.

So it's so when even when a publisher publishes for you, they're expecting you to sell the book, right? So they're expecting you to go out and sell the book. They're not going to put unless you're a well-known author, unless it's something wow that's, you know, completely wow and you've got a reputation, will they put money behind it? So, I think people have a misconception of what of uh even if you land a well-known publisher, it it doesn't guarantee you success and they're not going to invest a ton of money in you.

Um there are lots of different options these days. You know, there's a lot of self-publishing options or those or hybrid publishing options or people who will help bring your your book to market. So, there's a lot more options today. I think at the end of the day, I think uh if you're going to do a book, Sergey, do a book because you want to do a book and do a book that you're proud of. And if you're the only person who ever reads it or whatever, be fine with that because if you take that attitude, then you'll probably do well with it.

So, so grateful for this piece of advice. Yeah. Because that's something worthy. I'm not saying that other things in life are worth are worthless, but I mean to write a book is is a great great thing to have on in on your bio.

Yes. And and by the way, there's also one other piece of advice I would say is that if you it's write write blog posts or write or

Yeah, I do have a blog.

But and and we should never forget that we if we do have the skill of writing, we need to practice it, right? Never put it on on the shelf. But maybe someday if you look back at all your blog posts, maybe you actually have the bones of a book if you took all those blog posts. Maybe if you updated them, maybe if you rearranged them differently, changed some of them. You may already have a lot of content that could be, you know, the basis for a book. Um, that's that's another great great way of of doing it, too.

Uh, and then just and then I, you know, if you journal or just write down your ideas or whatever over time. Yeah. Do that. Yeah. And select and then um and then like say, is there maybe there's a book in there, but there's a lot of different ways. You don't have to start with a blank piece of paper.

John, as we wrapping up, my final question for you will be a philosophical one. Get ready.

Yeah.

What's more important, the path or the destination for you personally?

Oh, I would say the the the path is is far more important because um I always say to people and that's why I would say to people like you know obviously life's a journey and we're always we're always looking for destinations but mostly mostly what we find is a path that leads to another path that leads to another path that may lead to a destination. So I think you should I think you've got to enjoy the journey as frustrating as it can be at times and you've also got to be prepared when you hit those forks in the road you know where the path where you can go this way or that way is to is to just you know go with your gut go with your gut instinct and take a chance you know what's the worst thing you can happen that you have to double back and walk backwards and take the other path it doesn't matter.

I I think it's the it's the path is is the most is the most important thing and I wouldn't have I wouldn't have had half the experiences I've had today if I hadn't just decided to you know let the journey unfold if you like because as we said at the beginning I envy those people who had it all thought out wanted to be an account a lawyer or whatever and went on and did steps through one through 10 and became lawyer fantastic if that's you I mean I envy you if that's not you then just embrace opportunities as they come.

that was John Golden Everybody, thank you, John.

Yeah, thank you, Sergey. Fantastic.